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Author Topic: Throw a random Bible verse  (Read 5371 times)
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steka
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2008, 18:06:31 »

I notice the bit about free will, but decided to ignore it rather than scream at its re-mention. But since you bring it up yet again  Rolleyes:
 ohmy AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

OK, to a seriousish debate on this blimmin' subject:
So we are all responsible and accountable for actions which we commit of our own free will. An yet everything about us and all the choices we make are entirely governed by our DNA, conditioning, brainwashing from various sources of control, laws, society's values, subliminal messages and hypnosis of unscrupulous types such as yourself. Everything I do is already decided by pre-determined factors outside of my control.

Why did your God curse me with 'free' will? I'd much rather be a 'robot'. That way, I wouldn't have to think - I'd just do what I was told or 'programmed' to do. But instead, I have enough power of reasoning to realise that I'm being manipulated by various sources of control, and enough of a conscience to know that certain conditions have made me accept things which, if I had been left completely independent of DNA, environment, upbringing and the such, would disgust me and vice versa. But I can't do much about it.

So there's something to thank your God for. 'Free' will.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 18:08:25 by steka » Logged
Matt
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2008, 21:41:11 »

I THINK there is a flaw in your reasoning, but I am not sure I can split the hair or spell it out.
Islam means "submission" and I think it implies "submitting to Allah, in the sense of submitting to the inevitable or "fate" which I think is what you are describing here, (by trying neatly to BLAME everything on someone or something else.)  Whereas I think in Christianity we are saying God has a sovereign will, and a way that could make life easier if our will was in harmony with his, and our "submission" is in "being led" even if that amounts to being led to make wiser decisions, which in spite of all the things built in to us, and our environment, we always have the choice to do "A" or "B" or even "C".  And the hope or "extra" is that we believe we have the availability and power to call on a source outside of our own reserves to enable us to do the "impossible."  Because we acknowledge the "super-natural" then we have access to the super-natural, and this in turn produces super-natural results.  The happy little motto of Christians, (often applied out of context) is: "I can do everything through him who gives me strength."  (Misapplied it means there is nothing I can't try and accomplish because God will give me strength to do it and knowledge and everything else.  In context it means I can put up with any circumstance God puts me into. Paul who wrote it has just described how he can be "content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want." 

The matter of the will is ever before us and by Jesus' own example we believe we must always be determining "Not MY will but yours."  Which in turn raises the question (often debated among Christians and the theologians) "Could Jesus have sinned?" Did Jesus as "the son of Man" have free will? If not, or if he could not sin, then was he capable of being tempted and wasn't the "wilderness" experience just a waste of time? and how can we say he identified with mankind, or as it says "was in all things tempted (or tested) as we are, but sinned not"?

Another way of stating the "struggle" is that the "will" is not us. and the "flesh" is not us. The me that is the true me, has control over the flesh, (human appetites) and I control my "will".  Therefore I cannot say the "devil made me do it".  I can say the devil gave me some choices, but he didn't make me do anything I didn't will to do. (No matter what my DNA, or background or conditioning or anything else.) The ONLY people excused for making wrong choices are the mentally deficient, and usually their choices are more of the child-like nature, that shows us more about trust and obedience, than about wickedness.

Your "I'd much rather be a robot..." is exactly why cults and other scams flourish. It is in part why some aspects of Roman Catholicism USED to be so appealing, because if the pope said it, that settled it. 

I just read this quote today. from some Jon Stewart of "The Daily Show" but I have no idea who or what he is:  "Religion: It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."  The pictures would suggest a satire but who knows.?

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steka
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« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 16:45:11 »

All this talk of God proving himself to his people many a time so that they would worship him etc, and there's a convenient get-out clause in Deuteronomy 6:16 and (in case you're one of those Christians who always uses the excuse that it's only in the Old Testament and you don't think that verses count unless they're in the New Testament) also Matthew 4:7 both of which say "do not test the Lord your God." Convenient, innit?
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« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 19:16:12 »

All this talk of God proving himself to his people many a time so that they would worship him etc, and there's a convenient get-out clause in Deuteronomy 6:16 and (in case you're one of those Christians who always uses the excuse that it's only in the Old Testament and you don't think that verses count unless they're in the New Testament) also Matthew 4:7 both of which say "do not test the Lord your God." Convenient, innit?

Good grief Steka. Pretty soon you will be taking over my position with the way you can come up with obscure passages and cross reference them and all.  At least you didn't use the KJV version where the word is "do not tempt the Lord your God" and then point out where it says God cannot be tempted, nor does he tempt any person. 

Simply put, the "test" that is being referred to In Deut 6: was to an earlier incident where they "tested" God's patience with their whining and quarrelling and asking "is the Lord among us or not?"  Their quarrel, while somewhat legitimate for not having water when they thought they should, was particularly obnoxious because they "quarrelled with Moses and said "Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to make us and our children die of thirst?"  Implying of course that the miracles that they had already seen were NOT from God, and that they really would have preferred to have stayed in Egypt in their slavery.  That kind of "testing" is not the same as God "proving" his power and presence.  And even in the Testing, God answered by giving them the Water they asked for.  (Water from the smitten Rock... and that Rock is Jesus.)  (See Exodus 17 and  1 Cor. 10:4) and of course the same kind of "testing" is in place in Matt 4:7 when Satan is "testing" Jesus, because Satan does not doubt that Jesus is the Son of God, nor that God has the power to deliver him but rather, he wanted Jesus to "grandstand" the use of his powers for his own promotion and comfort.  That kind of "testing" is clearly NOT acceptable. But when God says, Prove me this day... He is inviting us to imagine what he can do beyond what we can ask or think, and he will show us.  (Who trust.)

Far from "convenient" as a get out clause, it emphasizes the kind of real "proving" he is willing to do. And often not because of us,... but in spite of us.  (As when he answered their whining for water, or when he showed his wounds to Thomas, who exchanged his doubts for bold confidence.  The Mar Thoma Churches of India trace their founding to the missionary work of Thomas the former doubter to whom God "proved himself"!
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2008, 19:03:32 »

Psalms 23 ....
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2008, 19:53:36 »

Psalms 23 ....

OK, now you need to review the "rules" that Steka set out on the first entry to this thread.  She thinks "throwing" a verse at me, will put me on the spot, and .... well who knows what she thinks apart from how she explained it there, and then I added a few provisos as well. 
Since there have been whole books written on Psalm 23, and I have a book that is just different versions of Psalm 23, don't expect that I can "answer" any point you raise, briefly. (Actually you will notice I don't do anything "briefly", but that is my trade mark.)  But, the "game" here is not so much that I will give a long exposition on the passage, but try to "explain" (from my perspective) what a "troublesome" portion MAY mean. 

So, did you have anything in particular about Psalm 23 you wanted my input on? And from there the discussion goes on in all directions.  Perhaps we should ask "why is it always used at Funerals when it has so much more to do with living than dying, or with life than with death?
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2008, 06:58:00 »

yep, why does he lead me beside still water?
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2008, 08:33:40 »

yep, why does he lead me beside still water?

Introduction:
David, the author was a shepherd before he was a king, and so in this psalm he relates everything as though he were the sheep.  Apparently sheep are very skittish, or nervous creatures and are not comfortable drinking from rushing, or noisy, or turbulent streams. (Probably too easy for wild animals to sneak up on them.) Therefore the thoughtful shepherd finds "quiet waters" or "waters of quietness" for them to refresh themselves at.  (But not "stagnant nor brackish water.)  Nor does it suggest the "bubble" that keeps the sheep from any difficulties, because subsequent verses talk about going through dark valleys and being in the presence of enemies. But the reassurance is that the Shepherd is "with them" all the time.  In eastern shepherding the shepherd went "before" the sheep, whereas in the west the shepherd "drives" the sheep. Just a little different image to keep in mind.  The Shepherd & sheep motif is one taken up quite often in both the OT and NT to picture God's relationship with his people.
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2008, 18:17:39 »

yep, why does he lead me beside still water?

Introduction:
David, the author was a shepherd before he was a king, and so in this psalm he relates everything as though he were the sheep.  Apparently sheep are very skittish, or nervous creatures and are not comfortable drinking from rushing, or noisy, or turbulent streams. (Probably too easy for wild animals to sneak up on them.) Therefore the thoughtful shepherd finds "quiet waters" or "waters of quietness" for them to refresh themselves at.  (But not "stagnant nor brackish water.)  Nor does it suggest the "bubble" that keeps the sheep from any difficulties, because subsequent verses talk about going through dark valleys and being in the presence of enemies. But the reassurance is that the Shepherd is "with them" all the time.  In eastern shepherding the shepherd went "before" the sheep, whereas in the west the shepherd "drives" the sheep. Just a little different image to keep in mind.  The Shepherd & sheep motif is one taken up quite often in both the OT and NT to picture God's relationship with his people.
Thanks very much, a logical and sound explanation. I also did not know about leading sheep, you are right that in the U.S., I have only seen film of sheep being driven or herded from the rear!
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2008, 19:24:59 »

It's my "teacher" tendencies (even though I am NOT a "teacher") of wanting to explain things and give the why behind the what that drove my son crazy. But for me it is in little details, like knowing the small points about driving or leading, that makes the difference in rightly perceiving some other point.  Jesus said "my sheep (not my lambs) know my voice ... and FOLLOW me."
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« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2008, 02:25:45 »

It says a lot about the church that they see their 'flock' as 'sheep', doesn't it eh?
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« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2008, 07:56:50 »

It says a lot about the church that they see their 'flock' as 'sheep', doesn't it eh?
Like as in "fleecing" for instance?

OR wolves in sheep's clothing

OR See John 10:1-18, for the definitive statement and contrast between the "Good Shepherd" and the "hired hand."
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« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2008, 17:07:25 »

I was thinking more along the lines of religious people being easily led and too ready to believe anything and everything just because their priest/vicar/pope etc told them it was true. The fact that Christianity sees its followers as flocks of sheep, and drums this metaphor into its followers, reinforces this suspicion, in my mind at least.
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« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2008, 19:25:39 »

I was thinking more along the lines of religious people being easily led and too ready to believe anything and everything just because their priest/vicar/pope etc told them it was true. The fact that Christianity sees its followers as flocks of sheep, and drums this metaphor into its followers, reinforces this suspicion, in my mind at least.
Now there you go using the term "religious people"  and "Christianity".  Biblical faith, talks about the sheep HEARING AND KNOWING the shepherds voice and FOLLOWING HIM.  Immature or lambs may not know (or discern) his voice but they more they listen the easier it becomes to distinguish His voice from those who are "hirelings".  Furthermore the Bible instructs the church how to recognise the true "under shepherds" or pastors.  Apart from the "manual" and a knowledge of it, the pattern isn't known  or followed so chaos results.  On another technicality, there is only ONE flock, that is one Shepherd and just a variety of "folds" around the country side to give shelter and care.  A real revolution far more reaching than anything Lovelians can dream of, would take place if some of the (perceptive) critics of the church from inside AND OUTSIDE would start to practice Biblical following and shepherding.  Do you want to be the first in your area, and I will be in mine?  No rules, just follow the shepherd.
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« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2008, 19:37:28 »

I was thinking more along the lines of religious people being easily led and too ready to believe anything and everything just because their priest/vicar/pope etc told them it was true. The fact that Christianity sees its followers as flocks of sheep, and drums this metaphor into its followers, reinforces this suspicion, in my mind at least.
Now there you go using the term "religious people"  and "Christianity".  Biblical faith, talks about the sheep HEARING AND KNOWING the shepherds voice and FOLLOWING HIM.  Immature or lambs may not know (or discern) his voice but they more they listen the easier it becomes to distinguish His voice from those who are "hirelings".  Furthermore the Bible instructs the church how to recognise the true "under shepherds" or pastors.  Apart from the "manual" and a knowledge of it, the pattern isn't known  or followed so chaos results.  On another technicality, there is only ONE flock, that is one Shepherd and just a variety of "folds" around the country side to give shelter and care.  A real revolution far more reaching than anything Lovelians can dream of, would take place if some of the (perceptive) critics of the church from inside AND OUTSIDE would start to practice Biblical following and shepherding.  Do you want to be the first in your area, and I will be in mine?  No rules, just follow the shepherd.
AMEN!
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« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2008, 21:08:13 »

I remember the good old...


"POW, made you look, you're just a slave to a page in my rhyme book."


Nas. 15:8:3
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« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2008, 01:15:47 »

God said let the be light
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« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2008, 07:30:11 »

God said let the be light

Significant isn't it that these are the first recorded words of God, especially in "light" of what science is still discovering about light and energy, and what may have been involved if something like a "big bang" is accepted as a most likely theory of "beginnings". Note in context there is no mention of duration of time except at the end of a period, evenin'g and Morning, (Chaos and Order) was day one.
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« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2011, 09:29:45 »

Facebook is boring when it comes to my interacting with "Christians" with all the pat answers and I miss the challenge that a formerly very active Lovelian provided on here.  So, anyone up to the task? 

The game: Take any passage of Scripture, take it out of context if it suits the purpose, and see if you can ask a question about it that I can't give some kind of explanation.  I may take it as a serious question and try to correct a misconception, OR I may take it as "you must be joking" and come up with a light or humourous explanation. OR I may just give an opinion and see if you have a better explanation. 

I posted some rules way back when, but I haven't read them this time, so may make up new ones as I go along.  BUT please,.. if you have read this far,  Play along. 
Even if it is to consider "Money is the root of all evil" or "To be or not to be..."  IF you think you have a Scripture and you don't know the actual reference, give me some key words and I may have the resources to find it and discuss it. 
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