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Author Topic: Abortion  (Read 8175 times)
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steka
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« on: July 06, 2008, 16:34:35 »

Matt and I have done the rounds with this topic many times over, so this is mostly just a thread for others to put their tuppence worth in, as we could do with some fresh arguments to add to the stale old ones we've been through a zillion times. Matt thinks that human life is inherently sacrosanct because man is made in God's image. As I don't believe in God, I didn't agree with this, so we agreed that we'd never agree.

The other reason for our disagreement was Matt's insistence that, if abortion is wrong for the reasons he'd already given, then it should ALWAYS be considered wrong. This makes him an absolute moralitist, which I am not, as I believe that, if there is ANY kind of moral code in the world, then it's certainly subjective, and can therefore not be considered absolute. Quite why Matt is an absolute moralitist when it comes to abortion yet a relative moralitist when it comes to war is beyond me.

But now I'm going to try arguing with Matt on his own terms. Even though I don't actually believe any of the following, for the sake of the argument, I'll say that man being made in God's image is a given, that the Bible is true and that there is an afterlife as is described in Christian doctrine.

Matt doesn't know whether babies who die before they reach the age of accountability go to heaven or not. Why wouldn't they go to heaven? If they were sent to either heaven or hell, depending on whether they'd have been saved had they lived to the age of accountability or not, then they would effectively be being held accountable for actions which they'd never take and beliefs which they'd never hold. This would make a mockery of the free will which we are supposed to have.

Since, by Matt's own admission, there is no Biblical basis for the Catholic's belief in purgatory of some kind of limbo for infants to go to, by process of elimination, babies must go to heaven. Logically, then, abortion would be the best course of action, as it would ensure that the unborn baby would be saved and go to heaven. Why, then, are Christians against abortion?
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 16:38:39 »

Even without religion, I say abortion is the choice of the mother. IF the baby is going to be born into poverty, abortion is ok. If the baby will have a teenage mother, abortion is ok. If the mother is a rape victim, with the pregnancy as a result, abortion is ok.
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2008, 18:42:24 »

As it happens, we touched on this last year in my Ethics class in Philosophy. So I'll whip my old textbook out so I can remember the names of the philosophers I know about on this topic. I don't know much about the religious basis of it (GCSE RS doesn't quite cover it as in-depth as I assume you guys go into things) so I'll throw something in when I think it's relevant; otherwise I'll try and shut up.

I'm absolutely pro-choice; I think that abortion should be the choice of the woman; and even if she's just been careless and got pregnant by accident then she should be allowed an abortion. Of course I don't think that women who just get pregnant from a one night stand, for example, are necessarily very clever in what they've done; (have they not heard of condoms?) but if the woman doesn't feel that she's in a position to have a child then I don't think an abortion should be disallowed to her.
In the case of rape victims and poverty then of course I believe that abortions should absolutely be allowed.

Anyway - that's my view on it; I'll get reading my old philosophy textbook to catch up on what I'm actually on about. Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2008, 18:43:52 »

I'm all for it.
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Matt
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2008, 20:49:02 »

Steka has done a fairly good job at summarizing my stance.  I did caution her though that my anti abortion view ONLY has merit IF I believe that the "thing" formed when a human sperm cell and a human egg unite is in fact a human being, and as such a creature "made in the image of God."
I don't really think there is anything to "debate" if one is not a theist.
The "absolute moralist" sense is only that because humans are made in the image of God, then they have intrinsic value, without regard to their mental or physical abilities, as does any human who is born and lives for any length of time. Therefore, the same 'protection" I would hold for the fetus I would also hold for the Octogenarian, or Alzheimer's patient, or criminal on death row.  In other words I should be "pro-life" (rather than anti-abortion.)  The other matter that I raise AGAINST Pro-Life groups is when they argue that if the mother's life is in danger THEN abortion can be considered.  To me that is inconsistent with their "argument" that no one (in the case of regular abortions) has the right to "play God." yet they reverse that when they deem the mother's life to be in danger.
If I were not a believer, and thought that the human race is only the result of one cosmic accident and subsequent mutations, I would conclude that No life has any reason to exist and I would conclude that therefore that since I already exist as a sexual being I should do what I can to find selfish satisfaction and pleasure, do everything to break the cruel cycle of birth and subsequent suffering and in one generation, we could all come to an end.  Not to mention of course the widespread elimination of the infirm, or weak, and then finish off the rest of the population by topping. In that context abortion is a minor issue.
I also throw in the thought that I am also in favour of "pro choice" but the choice should be made before the couple choose to have sex that could produce a child.   
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 21:57:27 »

then prepare to go long and hard and learn to like it, 'cos I'm catholic and I'm pro-choice. Put that in strict organized religion and be burned for witchcraftery. Tongue
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« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 00:23:10 »

I thought aborted babies didn't go to heaven cause they all had original sin...? Or something like that.

I think its alright. I dunno if I could do it but I don't think its ethically bad.
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« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 01:28:36 »

There's enough people in the world already, if people want to kill their kid, good on them.
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« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 01:33:49 »

In RE classes yonks ago I stated that abortion was OK up until the child was about 10 and obviously capable of looking after itself to an extent, this was mainly to upset some really sensitive girls that were in my class who thought it was horrid and were visibly horrified by said sentiment.

A fetus is a parasite, a baby can also be thought of as such, the world is over populated so from a "continuation of the human species" view point most babies are unnecessary, so I'm pro-choice as I always reckoned a baby born into a family where they wanted to abort it would have a high chance of a sucky life anyways.

(Please note I said Pro-Choice not Pro-Abortion, I'm not actively supporting abortion by any means)
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« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 01:37:16 »

In RE classes yonks ago, two of the girls in the class had already had abortions.
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« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 01:40:04 »

I lived in a small town every girl who fell pregnant disappeared and was never seen of again, I only knew they fell pregnant because of the gossip I didn't really give a toss.
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« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 03:39:22 »

Ours stayed in school and had their babies mostly.
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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2008, 03:47:39 »

abortion should be compulsory for some
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2008, 03:56:02 »



(Please note I said Pro-Choice not Pro-Abortion, I'm not actively supporting abortion by any means)

I'm Pro-Abortion. I carry around a coathanger at all times just in case I meet a pregnant woman.


Edit: why did I spell meet 'might'?
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Lard_Suddenly
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2008, 03:57:23 »

 laugh
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2008, 06:18:35 »

Abortion should not be made illegal no matter what your views are on the subject. If woman can't get abortions from doctors they ill resort to much more dangerous methods of killing the fetus, and these would harm not only the fetus, but also the mother.
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2008, 06:19:50 »

I think we should equip fetuses with weapons so they can at least try and defend themselves.
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2008, 06:23:48 »

Not enough research is done into giving feti claws with which to grip onto the womb
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2008, 06:26:33 »

I want to give them the ability to burst from the womb like an alien and eat face should they be threatened, that way they have to kill them quickly in abotions or the fetus will kill everyone.
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2008, 06:29:00 »

Eat Face from the A-Team?? How will the fetus know which one is Face?
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