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Question: Which is the best policy to adopt and promote?
Multiculturalism - 1 (100%)
Integration - 0 (0%)
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Author Topic: Multiculturalism or Integration.  (Read 1798 times)
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« on: May 04, 2010, 06:33:26 »

Watched a debate between immigration spokespeople for the general election and they all sided with integration rather than multiculturalism. The fact that these two were seemingly opposed suggests that integration is deemed to run more along the lines of Cultural Assimilation. Multiculturalism for those who aren't aware is described in far too much detail here.

My sister was there and I was discussing who she'd vote for if the election was a month later and she was old enough and she proclaimed she didn't really care as she didn't have a say without a vote (I told her she had no say even if she voted) but didn't like the tories or Brown but knew nothing of what their policies were. I asked her what she thought was best integration or multiculturalism and she sided with multiculturalism after I described them both and was surprised that UKIP, Tories, Labour and Lib Dems chose otherwise.

Feel free to discuss things biatches.
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 07:02:28 »

I shall attempt to discuss it, at least.

Intergration always seems like the ideal, but is ultimately unachievable. You can learn other cultures, and you can change the way you behave or act around other cultures, but you're still going to be drawn towards your particular culture. You can't just get rid of culture.

For example, a Muslim born and raised in Egypt who then moves to Dagenham I'd wager couldn't adopt that completely different culture in favour of their own. You would never fully disseminate the Egyptian into the stereotypical Dagenham persons "lifestyle"/culture. Through personal held beliefs, through the willingness to hold onto their own individuality, and partly through ignorance.

I'm sure that they could learn to live side by side, and respect each others cultures as best they could (which is what I think multiculturalism means) but to assimilate them into one culture seems slightly unachievable.
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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 07:17:44 »

Assimilation/Integration typically is something that sociologists would say would take generations to reach it's end goal. The problem with it is that people don't want to wait so long and I think it is far more dangerous than multicultualism and plays into the racists hands as it to an extent means conforming and what lots of people (notably right wingers) mean by integration doesn't seem to hold much adaption on behalf of the "indeginous" peoples to accomodate the new comers. It tends to be very one sided with notions of Tibbet's "cricket test" and such.

Meanwhile multiculturalism has it's critics who rightly say it entrenches communities and allows extremism to fester and leads to racial tensions. However I feel welcoming all cultures and allowing them as much scope to practice as possible (cultures involving human sacrifices probably are best not permitted to practice to the full extent of their thing) is fundamentally a better position than welcoming people to the country on the basis that they are willing to conform and "become British." We just need to work at allowing the multitude of cultures to interrelate with each other more often and more productively really. A major factor would be trying to tackle the increasing trend in faith schools and the like as the children are our future or some such bollocks.
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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 07:22:40 »

Hmm yeah. The thing that strikes me most as a major con of integration is that you are assuming that the one culture that is the majority is therefore the "best" culture and everyone else should conform to this culture.

Potentially dangerous.
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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 07:29:44 »

the tyrany of the majority is always bad especially when the superiority is purely because it is the majority and it's been around for a while.

I'd be fucked to define British culture really, we've always been one to pick up and adapt from other cultures hence why there are so many Curry houses and what not we had an Empire, we went around the world and we impacted on many countries but they all impacted back on us as well. I really hate Immigration as a political issue as it's always born out of fear and hatred. It is only an issue because people fear change, they fear new people taking what they already have and from this fear is born mistrust and anger over migration of a vocal nature and because it's vocal the politicians try and appease it.

The way we move forward as a society and deal with new peoples and cultures and how open we are to new things is of vital importance and the short sighted carrerist nature of politics and the huge right wing bias of much of the press couple together to mean that the strategies going forward are often flawed and proper discussion on the matter is stiffled.
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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 07:34:36 »

Isn't curry a national dish because of way back when the British Empire had loadsa money and could afford all the fancy spices to make curry with? And then in, like, the Victorian times (maybe before then) we built curry houses where the rich would go. So, it kind of is part of our culture now.

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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 07:37:13 »

Well yes it's to do with having lots of money and being fancy but we took from one culture and betterered our own. We've always done it, probably because the British have been dominated by the English and the English are so dreadfully dull they have to copy other cultures.
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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 07:41:10 »

Well yes it's to do with having lots of money and being fancy but we took from one culture and betterered our own. We've always done it, probably because the British have been dominated by the English and the English are so dreadfully dull they have to copy other cultures.
We didn't assimilate it into our culture though, really.

I get what you're saying, but when's the cut off point for something not being something intergrated into your culture, but it actually is your culture?
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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 07:49:48 »

[off topic] I always think it's ironic that in the countries where the spices came from, poor people had spicy food but the rich had much blander food. They must have thought westerners were mad when they found out we would pay a fortune for spices. [/off topic]
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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 07:54:22 »

Most towns in Britain will have at least one curry house, it's a part of the social norm and the origins of the crusine come from outside these isles.

There isn't a cut off point, once it's integrated it is in the culture, keeping in mind it's outside origin is just something, historians and racists will do for differing reasons.

Integration will happen eventually anyways, people live together they interact common ground will be born between them to create regional and national norms. Even if some cultural/ethnic/racial groups have to be dealt with with violence and genocide to make it happen. It's how humanity works.

I dunno I see all sorts of plusses and minuses with all sorts of arguements surrounding the issue but ultimately I don't think anyone has the right to dictate any sort of conditions or changes on peoples behaviour. You can't say people have to speak and read English to live here for example, you can encourage them to do so with the fact that living and working in this country can be difficult without having such lingustic skills. But that causes problems itself and its a mess and I don't know the right answer.
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« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2010, 07:57:37 »

I think people can live their lives how they like and I like to see people maintain their cultures/adapt and change as they so choose so long as whatever they're doing is within the law and equally respects the freedom of others in the same way. I don't believe you need to have a passion for tea to be British. Integration seems a bit old fashioned that you'd move to a country and adopt all of its ways and totally neglect your culture doesn't seem right to me, I wouldn't expect it of anyone and don't believe it's the state's role to enforce it on anyone. Although, having said that it does annoy me how bits of Spain (for example) are full of ex-pats who don't even bother learning to speak Spanish properly and just create a little-England for themselves out there. I believe moving to a new country inevitably will affect the way you think and your behaviour and maybe even how you see yourself. I guess I'm in favour of multiculturalism, but I don't like the idea of ghettos where people are totally separate from the rest of society and live quite insular lives, so I suppose integrated multiculturalism, or multicultural integration would fit the bill Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2010, 08:22:02 »

Ghettoisation is always the real risk and problem. The Ex-pats though are somewhat different as a number of them work in this country still and many would go for medical treatment and other things here rather than in Spain due to ease of transport. Also many of them move there after they've had kids, if they were having and raising their kids in Spain there'd possibly be more of a move towards integration through the children. That said the Ex-pat communities are far too young for any generational effect to be percieved if it is to happen. Really you have to wait for third generation migrants to see how integration is developing I reckon.
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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2010, 08:24:16 »

I've never met an ex-pat that I liked  downsmiley
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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2010, 13:17:43 »

I think they go for a sort of integrated multiculturalism here. They put all the immigrants in these immigrant schools and teach them language and the cultural values of here but get the immigrants to share their own cultures too and I guess they try and impress on them that its important to hold on to your homeland culture but to adjust to the new culture in certain areas (we had an interesting debate in class once on gays and the class in the end decided that even though gayness wasn't tolerated in their home culture its ok here and they are supposed to tolerate it)
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