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Author Topic: Blind leaders of the Blind  (Read 1535 times)
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Matt
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« on: May 25, 2010, 09:04:07 »

What do you understand of the phrase "Blind leaders of the Blind"?
(and  of the attached statement: "If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.)

To whom could the term "leaders" apply?
What does the term "blind" suggest?
Could there be two kinds of "blindness" here?
(What could be the ditches?)

Might you have particular examples of those to whom you consider these phrases would apply today or in recent history?
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Lard_Suddenly
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2010, 09:07:28 »

Blind leading the blind = someone who doesn't know what they're doing, telling other people what to do. Or, someone who doesn't know what they're doing, listening to someone elses advice about whatever it is that they don't know what they're doing either... The first way I said it probably makes more sense.

I can give you an example of a similar phrase being used in a Half Man Half Biscuit song:

In the kingdom of the blind, it's said the one-eyed man is king
In the kingdom of the bland, it's 9 o'clock on ITV.

 dunno

It doesn't really fit but I like those lyrics and wanted to post them.

As you were.
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 04:22:06 »

What is meant by 'blindness' is an interesting subject, even if you use the word 'blind' in the literal sense. I watched this episode of QI where they said that if a person who had been blind for most/all of their life were to undergo surgery which restored their sight, they wouldn't associate an object which they saw with an object which they had felt before. Like if someone put a sphere in their hands before the operation, and told them "This is a sphere", and then after the operation they were to see the exact same sphere, they wouldn't realise that the sphere they were seeing was the same as the sphere they had felt.

This is because we only assign colours to various wavelengths of visible light because that's how our brains 'see' the world. Perhaps bats 'see' the world through the echos which they navigate by - maybe to a bat, a shiny surface's echo would be red, a dull surface's blue, and a velvety surface green. (Bonus points to anyone who can correctly identify where I plagiarised the preceeding idea from).

What about if a person who had been blind for many years, that is long enough to learn to identify objects via other senses were to lead a person who had tragically become blind just a day or 2 ago? Would the latter receive any benefit from being lead by the former? How would this fit into the metaphorical meanings from the phrase "Blind leaders of the blind" - if, indeed, those meanings are metaphorical?
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 09:30:10 »

Have you read this short story by C.S. Lewis? I only heard about it a short while ago, and found it on line this morning.  
I think it relates in part to our discussion.  Both from Steka's comments about "sight", and about a kind of "mental" or philosophical blindness.  Later Lewis makes a point, in other of his writings, about our confusing what Light is and what light does.  Light is not what we see, but what we see BY.  

"The Man Born Blind" by C.S. Lewis *

"Bless us!" said Mary. "There's eleven o'clock. And you're nearly asleep, Robin."
She rose with a bustle of familiar noises, bundling her spools and her little cardboard boxes into the work-basket. "Come on, lazy-bones!" she said. "You want to be nice and fresh for your first walk tomorrow."
"That reminds me," said Robin, and then stopped. His heart was beating so loudly that he was afraid it would make his voice sound odd. He had to wait before he went on. "I suppose," he said, "there... there'll be light out there -- when I go for that walk?"
"What do you mean, dear?" said Mary. "You mean it will be lighter out of doors? Well, yes, I suppose it will. But I must say I always think this is a very light house. This room, now. We've had the sun on it all day."
"The sun makes it ... hot?" said Robin tentatively.
"What are you talking about?" said Mary, suddenly turning around. She spoke sharply, in what Robin called her 'governess' voice.
"I mean," said Robin, " ... well, look here, Mary. There's a thing I've been meaning to ask you ever since I cam back from the nursing home. I know it'll sound silly to you. But then it's different for me. As soon as I knew I had a chance of getting my sight, of course I looked forward. The last thing I thought before the operation was "light". Then all those days afterwards, waiting till they took the bandages off --"
"Of course, darling. That was only natural."
"Then, then, why don't I ... I mean, where is the light?"
She laid her hand on his arm. Three weeks of sight had not yet taught him to read the expression of a face, but he knew by her touch the great warm wave of stupid, frightened affection that had welled up in her.
"Why not come to bed, Robin dear?" she said. "If it's anything important, can't we talk about it in the morning? You know you're tired now."
"No. I've got to have this out. You've got to tell me about light. Great Scot -- don't you want me to know?"
She sat down suddenly with a formal calmness that alarmed him.
"Very well, Robin," she said. "Just ask me anything you like. There's nothing to be worried about -- is there?"
"Well then, first of all, there's light in this room at present?"
"Of course there is."
"Then where is it?"
"Why, all around us."
"Can you see it?"
"Yes."
"Then why can't I?"
"But Robin, you can. Dear, do be sensible. You can see me, can't you, and the mantelpiece, and the table and everything?"
"Are those light? Is that all it means? Are you light? Is the mantelpiece light? Is the table light?"
"Oh! I see. No. Of course not. That's the light," and she pointed to the bulb, roofed with its broad pink shade, that hung from the ceiling.
"If that's the light, why did you tell me the light was all round us?"
"I mean, that's what gives the light. The light comes from there."
"Then where is the light itself? You see, you won't say. Nobody will say. You tell me the light is here and the light is there, and this is in the light and that is in the light and yesterday you told me that I was in your light, and now you say that light is a bit of yellow wire in a glass bulb hanging from the ceiling. Call that light? Is that what Milton was talking about? What are you crying about? If you don't know what light is, why can't you say so? If the operation has been a failure and I can't see properly after all, tell me. If there's no such thing -- if it was all a fairy tale from the beginning -- tell me. But for God's sake --"
"Robin! Robin! Don't. Don't go on like that."
"Go on like what?" Then he gave it up and apologised and comforted her, and they went to bed.
A blind man has few friends; a blind man who has recently received his sight has, in a sense, none. He belongs neither to the world of the blind nor to that of the seeing, and no one can share his experience. After that night's conversations Robin never mentioned to anyone his problem about light. He knew that he would only be suspected of madness. When Mary took him out next day for his first walk he replied to everything she said. "It's lovely -- all lovely. Just let me drink it in," and she was satisfied. She interpreted his quick glances as glances of delight. In reality, of course, he was searching with a hunger that had already something of desperation in it. Even had he dared, he knew it would be useless to ask her of any of the objects he saw, "Is that light?" He could see for himself that she would only answer, "No. That's green" (or "blue", or "yellow", or "a field", or "a tree" or "a car"). Nothing could be done until he had learned to go for walks by himself.
About five weeks later Mary had a headache and took breakfast in bed. As Robin came downstairs he was for a moment shocked to notice the sweet feeling of escape that came with her absence. Then, with a long shameless sigh of comfort, he deliberately closed his eyes and groped across the dining-room to his bookcase - for this one morning he would give up the tedious business of guiding himself by his eyes and judging distances and would enjoy the old, easy methods of the blind. Without effort his fingers ran down the row of faithful Braille books and picked out the worn volume he wanted. He slipped his hand between the leaves and shuffled across to the table, reading as he went. Still with his eyes shut, he cut up his food, laid down the knife, took the fork in his left hand and began reading with his right. He realized at once that this was the first meal he had really enjoyed since the recovery of his sight. It was also the first book he enjoyed. He had been very quick, everyone told him, in learning to read by sight, but it would never be the real thing. "W-A-T-E-R" could be spelled out; but never, never would those black marks be wedded to their meaning as in Braille, where the very shape of the characters communicated an instantaneous sense of liquidity through his fingertips. He took a long time over breakfast. Then he went out.
There was a mist that morning, but he had encountered mists before and this did not trouble him. He walked through it, out of the little town and up the steep hill and then along the field path that ran round the lip of the quarry. Mary had taken him there a few days ago to show him what she called the "view". And while they had sat looking at it she had said, "What a lovely light that is on the hills over there." It was a wretched clue, for he was now convinced that she knew no more about light than he did, that she used the word but meant nothing by it. He was even beginning to suspect that most of the un-blind were in the same position. What one heard among them was merely the parrot-like repetition of a rumour - the rumour of something which perhaps (it was his last hope) great poets and prophets of old had really known and seen. It was on their testimony alone that he still hoped. It was still just possible that somewhere in the world, not everywhere as fools had tried to make him believe, guarded in deep woods, or divided by distant seas, the thing Light might actually exist, springing up like a fountain or growing like a flower.
The mist was thinning when he came to the lip of the quarry. To left and right more and more trees were visible and their colours grew brighter every moment. His own shadow lay before him; he noticed that it became blacker and firmer-edged while he looked at it. The birds were singing too and he was quite hot. "But still no Light," he muttered. The sun was visible behind him but the pit of the quarry was still full of mist - a shapeless whiteness, now almost blindingly white.
Suddenly he heard a man singing. Someone whom he had not noticed before was standing near the cliff edge with his legs wide apart dabbing at an object which Robin could not recognise. If he had been more experienced he would have recognised it as a canvas on an easel. As it was, his eyes met the eyes of this wild-looking stranger so unexpectedly that he had blurted out, "What are you doing?" before he realised it.
"Doing?" said the stranger with a certain savagery. "Doing? I'm trying to catch light, if you want to know, damn it."
A smile came over Robin's face. "So am I," he said and came a step nearer.
"Oh - you know too, do you?" said the other. Then, almost vindictively, "They're all fools. How many of them come out to paint on a day like this, eh? How many of them will recognise it if you show 'em? And yet if they could open their eyes, it's the only sort of day in the whole year when you can really see light, solid light, that you could drink in a cup or bathe in! Look at it!"
He caught Robin roughly by the arm and pointed into the depths at their feet. The fog was at death-grips with the sun, but not a stone on the quarry floor was yet visible. The bath of vapour shone like white metal and unfolded itself continually in ever-widening spirals towards them. "Do you see that?" shouted the violent stranger. "There's light for you if you like it!"
A second later the expression on the painter's face changed. "Here!" he cried. "Are you mad?" He made a grab at Robin. But he was too late. Already he was alone on the path. From beneath a new-made and rapidly vanishing rift in the fog there came up no cry but only a sound so sharp and definite that you would hardly expect it to have been made by the fall of anything so soft as a human body; that, and some rattling of loosened stones.


From notes in "Planet Narnia: The Seven Heavens in the Imagination of C.S.Lewis", by Michael Ward, Oxford University Press, 2008 we learn that "The Man Born Blind" was written prior to Lewis's conversion to Christianity, during a period that he referred to as "The Great War" ...'the long philosophical dispute he had in the 1920's with his friend , Owen Barfield, a dispute that Lewis described as one of the turning points in his life." see page 33.  
The bibliography says that the story appeared after Lewis death in: "'Essay Collection' pages 783-786. The title is an allusion to Christ's healing of the sightless man at the pool of Siloam (John 9:1-40).  There is an extant draft of the story, entitled 'Light' (Bodlein Library: MS. Facs. c.158.)"  ibid. p 261.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 09:33:15 by Matt » Logged

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Matt
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 10:06:33 »


Quote
What about if a person who had been blind for many years, that is long enough to learn to identify objects via other senses were to lead a person who had tragically become blind just a day or 2 ago? Would the latter receive any benefit from being lead by the former? How would this fit into the metaphorical meanings from the phrase "Blind leaders of the blind" - if, indeed, those meanings are metaphorical?

The original (Biblical) quote of course would have suggested perhaps that the need for a "guide" would have meant that both of them were venturing into an area hitherto unknown or unexplored.  The "guides" were 'advertised' as it were as being guides, those who "knew the way", but in fact they had never been in the realm or territory, or had the real knowledge of that "kingdom" to which they were supposedly going to guide the followers.  It was as though they were to be "travel agents" who had read books about the "country" but had never been there, and had never actually heard the language spoken, or experienced the customs so they were completely misinformed, and would have been complete strangers and would have misled their followers. (As with the Pharisees, contrasted with Jesus, who, concerning the "kingdom of heaven" ...had been there and done that!")

The Biblical allusions to this "proverb*" are found in Matthew 15:14; 23:16-26; Luke 6:39 ff.

A common proverb long before Jesus applied it to the Pharisees.

Quote
(Biblical citations of commonly used English phrases usually tend to be earlier than those from other sources. In this case the thought was probably inherited from the Upanishads - the sacred Hindu treatises, which were written between 800BC and 200 BC and first translated into English between 1816-19. From Katha Upanishad we have:

Abiding in the midst of ignorance, thinking themselves wise and learned, fools go aimlessly hither and thither, like blind led by the blind.

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