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Author Topic: Rioting, protests and that  (Read 4384 times)
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Revolutionary1
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« on: December 11, 2010, 06:17:46 »

So what's your opinion on all the tuition fee related protest/riots?

I thought it was a bit of a shame that the students didn't manage to kill Charles and Camilla. They could've killed one royal a week until the government backed down.
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« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 06:26:29 »

It's bad what is being done and people are right to complain.
But everyone's complaining for the wrong reasons because they're idiots
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« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 12:12:59 »

Firstly, I don't really care about whether tuition fees go up or not. The rioting "protesters" annoy me because they were just vandalising things/attacking people because they thought they could get away with it, purely taking the opportunity to demonstrate how little respect they had for their country or other people. I'm also annoyed with the people criticising the police (including some of the peaceful protesters and the national campaign against the rise in tuition fees - not quite their title, but it's pretty similar) they seem to expect the police to just stand there as missiles are thrown at them and as they're verbally abused. They also don't understand squat about how to manage crowds or what police rights are when it comes to managing crowds. As for Charles and Camilla, I'm certainly no royalist (quite the opposite in fact) but I did feel really sorry for Camilla especially when I saw her face in those pictures, no one should be made to feel that scared.
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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 16:30:37 »

Frankly I think anyone involved in the violence have done nothing other than void their opinion. I'm sure a lot of them weren't students yet and had little to no chance of getting a place at a university anyway.

But if you put enough unhappy people in one place there will be a riot. whatever the group of people is and whatever they're complaining about some violence is pretty much inevitable.


My issue with the tuition fees is that they're just a new tax, but it's a grossly unjust and flawed tax.
The government is making a big thing of the fact that you don't have to pay anything if you earn under 20k, but if you're earning less than that you've just wasted 3 or 4 years.
Meanwhile people who benefit from university get higher paying jobs, pay more tax, bring money into the country and often create even more jobs indirectly, end up having to pay more, plus interest, plus pay off the loans via taxes of the graduates who end up with low paying jobs.

And then it's back to the old argument about whether the previous governments target of having 50% of people going to university actually has any benefits.
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« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2010, 16:15:27 »



But if you put enough unhappy people in one place there will be a riot. whatever the group of people is and whatever they're complaining about some violence is pretty much inevitable.

Or if you trap enough unhappy people in one place whilst occassionally pushing them and hitting them because you happen to be in the police you're going to provoke angry reactions. (Protests have been happening nationwide, it's only the kettled and protests met with heavy handed policing that seem to devolve into quite so much violence).

Oh fuck I sounded a bit like Zsu then didn't I. Shit. Sorry folks.

The issue is still a Public Relations one, the government is ignoring the people who are expressing an angry opinion rather than get them onside, the violence is self defeating to win public support to properly pressure the government. That said violence doesn't negate any opinions and all the great struggles against governments have required violence. Sure Ghandi and Martin Luther King used non-violence and were successful in convincing people to support their causes. Meanwhile violence was happening in relation to the thing both those folk were campaigning about which also played it's part.

The violence we've seen so far has been by children and children are both too stupid to be properly violent and actually fairly crap at violence.

Allot of the anger at the tuition fees is misplaced, it's not a proper debt (until a future government says "lets have all the student loans publically available on a credit check) it is more akin to a tax like Cog says and better than a standard graduate Tax in most circumstances your payment is personally tailored to you. The issue is that the interest rates placed on these quasi-taxation loans hasn't been decided upon by the government yet. (Nor has the national schollarship fund to get poor people learned good or other elements of the system. This government loves doing half a job and leaving the actual important details until later the LAZY FUCKS).

The other issue is that the teaching grants to Universities by the government are being cut, the balance between student and state and who pays towards the university education has been thrown right out of whack (Tuition Fees originally being introduced as a means of increasing University spending without the tax averse being angry about it) which means that people are going to be burderned with an increased amount of repayments and may not actually be having a better quality of education, and most likely not an improving standard of education (which with the OCED results having the UK sliding further in Maths and English behind the likes of Korea and Finland isn't a good thing). Also the government are portraying it as a fucking loan which has connotations of debt. Medical students who should be smart have been telling the media that they wouldn't do a medical degree under the future system as it's like a mortgage before you get started in life. Other than the fact that no one will take your house from you if you don't pay your student loan and in the current economic situation at any rate it'll be a very bad mortgage not to have a better rate of interest than 3% above inflation. It's almost as if they want to deter people from university, especially the decent boon to society courses like engineering, the sciences and medicine which can be longer than the three year norm for humanities.

The student/anti-coalition/anti-cut movement needs decent leaders and figureheads and to diverse itself a bit. We need both a Malcolm X and a Martin Luther King to lead two differing campaigns against the stupidity and both need to then be killed so that sanity can reign again.

The final Lib Dem arguement for supporting the proposals was "it's the best deal at the moment" the people from the Universities say "it's good the proposals passed because otherwise we'd have no money" which makes me think that maybe, instead of cutting University spending straight away, they should've earmarked the cut in the grants for when a system had been put in place (the cut being announced just 8 days after the Browne Review into education and before any proposals had been properly drawn up) and taken their time to do things properly. Some of the things relating to Universities and their role in society (is 50% a target we should be aiming for, what do we want out of Universities, should they structure their courses differently to lend to more well rounded educations for folks) need to be discussed alongside the actual monetary costings of running the system. Funding affects how the Universities perform you can't reform funding (and threaten to cap foreign student visas and all the money they bring to the universities) without thinking about changing either the expectations or the systems themselves to make sure performances are good still. It was a rush job, everything by this government is and people have every right to be angry about it.

It's still reasonably recent history when the March against the war in iraq achieved fuck all and was peaceful and shit and that was in a far away land was based around some noble principle, this is peoples lives and futures and this land here being jepodised by idiocy and ideology. It can't be surprising that folks are worked up enough to be violent.
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« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2010, 17:17:53 »


Or if you trap enough unhappy people in one place whilst occassionally pushing them and hitting them because you happen to be in the police you're going to provoke angry reactions. (Protests have been happening nationwide, it's only the kettled and protests met with heavy handed policing that seem to devolve into quite so much violence).
The millbank riot started despite relatively low levels of policing. You have to think from the polices perspective, if I was a policeman there I definitely be pushing and hitting out of fear of being pushed and hit.
 At every riot there's someone telling a reporter that they were hit by the police even though they were just asking for help. The policeman is wearing a helmet, is in the middle of the riot, and is probably trying to listen to his radio, if someone goes to them asking for help, all they see is someone shouting at them which just looks exactly like everyone else there.
I've got a photo of my grandad policing at a riot, their tactic then was to just link arms and form a human chain to hold the crowd back. If police tried that now it would just fail terribly because now there will always be someone in the crowd who isn't afraid to escalate the violence.


Quote
Oh fuck I sounded a bit like Zsu then didn't I. Shit. Sorry folks.
It's a shame, I used to like her before she got involved in politics.

Quote
The issue is still a Public Relations one, the government is ignoring the people who are expressing an angry opinion rather than get them onside, the violence is self defeating to win public support to properly pressure the government. That said violence doesn't negate any opinions and all the great struggles against governments have required violence. Sure Ghandi and Martin Luther King used non-violence and were successful in convincing people to support their causes. Meanwhile violence was happening in relation to the thing both those folk were campaigning about which also played it's part.
Violence definitely has a place in politics, however, it needs the backing of the greater majority of the population, and it needs to be orchestrated and controlled to the fullest extent possible, rather than being a group of masked thugs throwing bricks from the middle of a crowd.

Quote
The violence we've seen so far has been by children and children are both too stupid to be properly violent and actually fairly crap at violence.
The use of improvised shields by some of the rioters was quite brilliant I thought, it's just a shame they were made by retards who thought polystyrene boards would be a good choice of material.
Rioters need to beat the police at their own game, they need full sized shields coupled with greater numbers behind the shields. Such tactics would result in practically no injuries to either side, whilst the polices efforts would be useless. It would also demonstrate complete unity within the group of protesters and also show that the violence against the police was not carried out by opportunistic thugs.

Quote
Allot of the anger at the tuition fees is misplaced, it's not a proper debt (until a future government says "lets have all the student loans publically available on a credit check) it is more akin to a tax like Cog says and better than a standard graduate Tax in most circumstances your payment is personally tailored to you. The issue is that the interest rates placed on these quasi-taxation loans hasn't been decided upon by the government yet.
In my opinion the way the repayments are tailored will greatly erode the value and benefits of degrees. It will also make many graduates actually want to get lower paying jobs, which is bad in many ways.

Quote
Medical students who should be smart have been telling the media that they wouldn't do a medical degree under the future system as it's like a mortgage before you get started in life. Other than the fact that no one will take your house from you if you don't pay your student loan and in the current economic situation at any rate it'll be a very bad mortgage not to have a better rate of interest than 3% above inflation. It's almost as if they want to deter people from university, especially the decent boon to society courses like engineering, the sciences and medicine which can be longer than the three year norm for humanities.
The real problem is that it will make saving for a deposit on a mortage much harder for many people, hopefully this will encourage house prices to fall, but if it doesn't then the housing market will swing towards renting.
On the news the other day there were a group of kids complaining that people from the london slums wouldn't be able to get degrees anymore  doh  But for some reason they were all hiding their faces.



And on another note, the press seems to be ignoring the fact that the browne report was commissioned by the labour government not the current government, and had labour still been in charge they would probably be doing more or less the same thing now.
It could also be argued that lord brownes wealth added bias to the recommendations made by the report, and it could be said that the report follows the same pattern of the cuts he allegedly made whilst at BP which apparently led to many accidents perhaps even to the deepwater horizon spill.
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« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2010, 17:41:49 »

The current government adjusted the remit of the Browne Report though.

The students under the new system whilst being in debt longer will have more pre-loan payment income that me or you Cog, that's good for them and better for them to save for mortgages.

Violence doesn't tend to have mass support, it's ugly looking which is why there needs to be too distinct strands of protest (which there seems to be forming though neither has any real publicly accessible leadership/figureheads which is a shame).

The Millbank riots weren't that bad really, it had the benefit of actually targetting people that should be targetted rather than just doing damage to property indiscriminately and was much tamer and had less muddying of the waters with complaints being made against the police and what not.

I think the tactics of the police shouldn't be "let them run amok" as in Millbank but they should perhaps wait for amok to get going before sticking the welly in a tad. If I was in a kettle, and I saw police being forceful against people who aren't justifying it and getting upset about losing the right to movement because they wish to voice an opinion I'd get up in the faces of the police myself. Fuck those guys, fuck the law, there is right and there is wrong and if the police aren't willing to act in a manner that is right then I'm willing to be beaten senseless by them.
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« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2010, 04:41:55 »

We did all this in the early nineties.
It made no difference then and i doubt it will now. My guess is the SWP and class war have a lot to do with it. I remember going to sit ins in uni and matching the streets protesting. If anything i defend the right of the students to protest and you have to face the truth that some members of any mass group of people will include a few idiots.
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« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2010, 14:25:31 »

It does seem to me to be the beginning of a class war (or at least an escalation). First the government increases tuition fees to deter the working class from going to university, and then they'll cut public sector jobs, forcing us to go work in manufacturing or retail. Where we belong.
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« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 16:06:15 »

I have heard by word of mouth that a leaked internal document states that the government is expecting that only 25% of student loans will ever be repaid 
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 03:44:29 »

I finished paying my loan about a year ago now. The interest rate was fuck all and it was deferred for more than ten years. I actually got a grant to go to uni and party so my loan was minimal. My loan itself was used for recreational chemicals and a holiday in tenerife. I know, I'm nothing if not classy.
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 12:19:52 »

I have heard by word of mouth that a leaked internal document states that the government is expecting that only 25% of student loans will ever be repaid 

They're expecting only 25% of loans to be paid off, they're expecting more than that number to pay what they took out (due to the use of above inflation interest rates, as shown by Giddsey having fuck all interest due to it only being inflationary rates) they think depending at the rates of interest charged at different income rates that up to 5% of people will be paying well over the odds in repayment whilst a larger number still are likely to repay what they got paid but not cover the interest).

Gove (current education secretary) who was a journalist back when tuition fees were first introduced liked the fact that it would disuade people from going to university because it wasn't for everyone and would keep the value of university education high. This isn't the case now with the teaching grant to universities being cut by upto 80%
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 12:33:34 »

Gove (current education secretary) who was a journalist back when tuition fees were first introduced liked the fact that it would disuade people from going to university because it wasn't for everyone and would keep the value of university education high.

The arsing twatdonkey  angry
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 16:05:55 »

University is only for rich people and the Scottish.
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2010, 06:58:25 »

Got a lift home from Helen on Monday after tennis was cancelled.

Let me transcribe my conversation in a slightly patchy format:

Her: So what do you do for a living then that means you can't come to tennis in February? What what what, yar, yar, *points pinky out as she sips tea from a china cup*
Me: I work in the Careers team at Brookes.
Her: Oh, now that's interesting..-
Me: -yeah, it is actually quite interesting. I'm in charge of the Destinations survey that finds out what graduates are doing 6 months after they leave university. So in Feb, I'll be staying behind after the office closes with a group of students that I recruited to phone the graduates who don't respond to the postal survey.
Her: Oh, really? Gosh.
Me: Yeah, there's about 4500 grads and we have to get an 80% response rate, so..
Her: 4500? That's ridiculous.
Me: Well, it is quite a high target, but the data wouldn't be valid if we didn-
Her: -no, I mean that Brookes has that many students. That's ridiculous. I'm going to get on my soap box about this,
Me: ..er..
Her: I don't think everyone should go to University.
Me: Ah, well, I didn't act-
Her: It's ridiculous that a University like Brookes should have that many graduates each year. I believe University should be for the academic elite only, and that all these universities like Brookes should be closed. I mean, is that 4500 just undergrads?
Me: Well, no, it's undergrads and postgrads.
Her: I still think it's too high.
Me: Well, that's an interesting opinion. We actually have roughly 22,000 students enrolled at the Uni.
Her: 22,000!?! And are they all full time?
Me: No. It's part time, full time, people on undergrad courses, postgrads, people on foundation courses at local colleges which come under the umbrella of Brookes... Of course, we do run a lot of vocational courses, so things like teachers, nurses-
Her: No, I'm sorry, I don't mean to rant, but that is just ridiculous that all these people should be allowed to go to University. I met a graduate nurse from Brookes a couple of weeks ago who told me that she was looking forward to working with patients now she had completed her degree! How ridiculous is that, that someone can go to Brookes and get a degree in nursing without working with patients!?

I was getting quite angry/frightened that someone can be so ignorant at this point.

Me: Ahem. Of course they work with patients. They have to do placements as part of their course. They can't complete their degree without doing so. It would be impossible to do so.  huh
Her: I just don't think it's right, and I feel quite strongly about this. Anyway, shall I email you over the next few weeks to arrange to play tennis?
Me: Erm, well... I'm actually busy for the next few weeks, so probably some time in the new year.

She pulled up outside my house at this point

Her: I'll send you an email and we can try and arrange to meet up one afternoon or something.
Me: Erm, sure. Thanks for the lift...


And then, as I climbed out of her massive Range Rover, carefully avoiding kicking the brioche packets onto my road, that had been left on the floor of her car because that's the only thing her kids will eat for breakfast after being raised in France and then Holland, I stood behind the leviathan of a motor vehicle as she drove off quite content in her little bubble of ignorance where her archaic opinions on elitism and the scummy working class thickos who will cloud up all the universities and waste valuable tax payer money on providing higher education for almost everybody, taking up graduate level jobs for her spoilt snobbish brats who will obviously work hard and achieve high grades from their expensive public school education and Russell Group University place to get a job that daddy had lined up for them all along working in his international company.... as I left her car, I thought "fuck off" and walked into my house quite silent but annoyed and did what most good husbands do, I complained to my wife about it.
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2010, 14:30:32 »

So she's basically saying you shouldn't have a job? Would she still want to play tennis with you if you were unemployed?
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2010, 19:47:36 »

tennis is gay
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« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 01:31:16 »

So she's basically saying you shouldn't have a job? Would she still want to play tennis with you if you were unemployed?
She's basically being really rude and then requesting I play tennis with her despite my trying to get out of it..

It's a bit of a quandry, because I do need to practice, and she was giving me a lift home... I might go on a rant about private health care, or private education, and how ridiculous that is next time I see her.

Or, find out what it is she does for a living and complain about that to her face instead.

Or as well. See how much of a twat I feel like being.
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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2010, 01:41:42 »

*epic facepalm*

Sure, I think there are too many people going to univeristy at the moment, but there are some people who have no sense of scale for big numbers.
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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 02:41:35 »

Aye. I felt like telling her that it was only in the 70s when secondary school education became a national requirement, and even then there were people protesting it with the same excuse about how it's a burden to educate all these people who "don't need it".  undecided
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