Home   Forum   Help Media Centre Search Calendar Shop Gallery Login Register   *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
June 24, 2017, 06:01:54

Login with username, password and session length
Recent
by
[June 13, 2017, 06:31:42]

[May 05, 2017, 09:58:58]

[May 03, 2017, 09:25:15]

[May 02, 2017, 21:36:18]

[April 02, 2017, 03:04:23]
Twitter
Permissions

Last 10 Shouts:
June 02, 2017, 00:45:32
aye aye sir ted
May 16, 2017, 04:32:06
Aye
May 05, 2017, 10:07:12
hello guests! please sign up to lovely. pleeaaase
May 02, 2017, 21:41:53
memebigboy
April 15, 2016, 09:31:08
Who who?
April 10, 2016, 15:44:15
Aye aye captain
March 28, 2016, 13:05:24
Aye
November 17, 2015, 10:58:16
Aye
August 22, 2015, 06:42:55
Giraffe
August 05, 2015, 07:41:57
Last year
Members
Total Members: 560
Latest: snowberry
Stats
Total Posts: 244571
Total Topics: 5053
Online Today: 29
Online Ever: 137
(July 20, 2014, 20:19:05)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 16
Total: 16
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Prophecy of Tyre  (Read 1881 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
steka
Earth goddess
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1447


Earth goddess


View Profile
« on: August 12, 2011, 06:25:50 »

Why was Ezekiel not put to death? He was obviously a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:21-22. And according to verse 20, this means that he ought to have been put to death.

The failed prophecy which reveals Ezekiel to be a false prophet is the one in Ezekiel 26, specifically verse 14. The city of Tyre still stands to this day. King Nebuchadnezzar II died long ago, so it is now a little late for any imminent destruction of Tyre to count as a fulfillment of the prophecy.
Logged
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2011, 22:04:10 »

Why was Ezekiel not put to death? He was obviously a false prophet according to Deuteronomy 18:21-22. And according to verse 20, this means that he ought to have been put to death.

The failed prophecy which reveals Ezekiel to be a false prophet is the one in Ezekiel 26, specifically verse 14. The city of Tyre still stands to this day. King Nebuchadnezzar II died long ago, so it is now a little late for any imminent destruction of Tyre to count as a fulfillment of the prophecy.

NOw the key word here is "never be rebuilt" and "never fulfilled" and is the Tyre that now stands the Tyre that was to never be rebuilt?  Is the Tyre that now stands in the same location or does it only bear the same name?


According to one note re verse 8 that says: "Nebuchadnessar's 15-year seige of Tyre began shortly after the fall of Jeusalem.  There is no record that Tyre fell at this time."  The note for verse 14 says: "Eventually fulfilled by Alexander's devastating siege in 332 BC.  " 
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2011, 22:22:32 »

This note on Isaiah 23:1
"Tyre: the main seaport  along the Phoenician coast, about 35 miles north of Mount Carmel.  Part of the city was built on two rocky islands about half a mile from shore.  King Hiram of Tyre supplied cedars and craftsmen for the (Jerusalem) temple and sailors for Solomon's commercial fleet. 
destroyed: Fullfilled through Asyria, Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander. Nebuchadnezzar captured the mainland city in 572 BC but the island fortress was not taken until Alexander the great destroyed it in 332. 

There is an important detail about prophecies that do not come true, which some may miss.  "Jeremiah 18:7,8. "If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned... " etc.


So the question about Ezekiel.  Did his prophecy say in what time frame this event was to take place?  Was he off then about the date in which it would be fulfilled?  Did he say that there would never be a place called Tyre again?
What does the city of Tyre look like now? Does it occupy the "islands" that it did at the time of the prophecy? 

Let she who is without sin cast the first stone eh?
So good to hear from you. I was considering sending you a message to see if you were still alive.
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
steka
Earth goddess
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1447


Earth goddess


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 04:41:53 »

Note: unless stated otherwise, all verses referred to within this post are verses within Ezekiel 26. So 'verse 14' would refer to Ezekiel 26:14.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Tyre#After_1920. Note that the 1st sentence says "The present-day city of Tyre covers a large part of the original island," so the City of Tyre today is substantially in the same location as it was in King Nebuchadnezzar's time.

Alexander the Great's siege was not all that devestating. It is said that he destroyed half the city - this isn't quite the same as making Tyre into a 'bare rock' (verse 14). And if Alexander DID destroy the city to the extent prophecied in Ezekiel 26, it has certainly since been rebuilt - contrary to verse 14. Contrary to verse 20, Tyre currently boasts a population of around 174,000. And contrary to verse 21, many tourists manage to find and visit Tyre every year.

As per the time frame specified by Ezekiel: note verse 7. The moment that King Nebuchadnezzar II died, the prophecy failed. If King Nebuchadnezzar was not prophecied to completely destroy Tyre, but to merely slay a few of her daughters on the mainland and hold Tyre to a siege (verse 8), then what is the meaning of Ezekiel 29:18-20? Why would God offer King Nebuchadnezzer Egypt and her plunder as payment for the unrewarded effort that King Nebuchadnezzar put into his failed siege of Tyre if no reward beyond the plunder of the mainland was ever prophecied? Incidentally, here be another failed prophecy of Ezekiel's. Whenabouts was Egypt laid waste to for 40 years, as per Ezekiel 29:11?

But if Alexander the Great was the fulfiller of the prophecy (I am aware of the argument that refers to verse 3's reference to 'many nations'), then he failed to prevent the city from ever being inhabited again. So this still does not fulfill the prophecy completely. And if Tyre were to be laid waste to forever this would contradict Isaiah's prophecy, specifically Isaiah 23:17. Lebanon is now a parliamentary democracy, so which King's lifetime is referred to in Isaiah 23:15?

The window is beginning to jump, so I will address Jeremiah 18:7-8 in a new post.
Logged
steka
Earth goddess
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1447


Earth goddess


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 05:30:56 »

I had a feeling that you would try to wriggle out of this one with Jeremiah 18:7-8. The prototypical example given is usually that of Nineveh, no? Jonah 3 - Jonah warns Nineveh of God's impending wrath; Nineveh does a sackcloth-and-ashes penitence; God spares Nineveh.

But unfortunately, God's acceptance of sinners' repentance seems to be rather ad-hoc and arbitrary. Two examples:

  • 2 Kings 22:8-17 and 2 Kings 23. TL;DR version: Hilkiah discovered the book of the law during the reign of Josiah. Josiah understood that the people had been disobedient to its precepts. The prophetess Huldah warned that Yahweh would "bring disaster upon this place and its inhabitants" because of their disobedience (2 Kings 22:16). Josiah called all the people of Judah and Jerusalem (2 Kings 23:1-2) and had the book read to them. All relics of Baal were removed from the temple, the houses of the male prostitutes were pulled down, all idols were smashed into pieces and ground into dust, etc., etc., etc. Yet after all of this was done, "the Lord did not abate his fierce anger" (2 Kings 23:26). So Judah did the whole sackcloth-and-ashes penitence thing, same as Nineveh. Yet this did not prevent the Lord from fulfilling his prophecy against Judah.
  • Saul disobeyed Yahwah's command to utterly destroy the Amalekites (1 Samuel 15:3,9). Samuel was sent to Saul to tell him "Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king." (1 Samuel 15:23). Saul then repents of his sin, and begs for forgiveness to the point of grabbing Samuel's cloak when he turned to leave. (1 Samuel 15:24-27). But Samuel said "The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from your hand today and will give it to another, better man than you." (1 Samuel 15:28). Saul was subsequently killed in battle and David was anointed king.

So God seems to be rather reluctant to revoke a prophecy of misfortune or destruction in the light of the subject of the prophecy repenting of their disobedience and sin. Also, there are no records of which I am aware which indicate that Tyre or Eqypt ever underwent changes that would have warranted the nullification of the prophecies that had been proclaimed about them. If these prophecies were nullified by the change-of-heart factor outlined in Jeremiah 18:7-8, why did God not record the changes so that mankind would better understand his divine plan? Did he want to confuse people and make them think that his prophets were not real prophets?

Yes, I'm still alive. I was prompted to do this thread by some nutter JWs going on at me about how if you read the Bible then you will see that the End of the World is due any day now, and the Bible's prophecies have never been wrong before. I did a bit of research and found that actaully quite a lot of the Bible's prophecies failed.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2011, 05:46:16 by steka » Logged
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 06:34:49 »

Well praise the Lord for JW's if that is what it took to get you back to the Bible!  Smiley
And to Lovely!

Now I suppose I will just have to admit utter defeat and confess that you have completely undone my faith. 

I made reference to Jeremiah only because our pastor had quoted it in his morning message. I thought it was a good principle to have in mind... generally speaking.

We have another "wiggle room verse" about repentance.  In Hebrews 12:17, we read of Esau "who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights to his brother... "Afterward as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected.  He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the blessing with tears." (See Gen. 27:41 etc.)

A further word to bring "light" to the issue of repentance is in 2 Corinthians 7:(9), 10. "(yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow  led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so you were not harmed in any way by us.) Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."  (Jumping window, see next entry)
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 07:00:05 »

Back to the note per Esau, (and would apply to Saul)!  From the NIV notes " 'he was rejected'. Because he only regretted his loss, and did not repent of his sin.  His sorrow was not 'godly sorrow' that 'brings repentance that leads to salvation', but 'worldly sorrow that brings death.' "
I won't labour this point or argue whether or not there is a significant difference between the two approaches, except to appeal to your own "witness" as to the "repentance" or "being sorry" or apologies you may have offered over your lifetime. Would you say that you have been guilty of "worldly sorrow" only because you were hoping to avoid the punishment or the loss, but that it was completey devoid of "godly sorrow" or repentance that acknowledged that the act itself was 'wrong'?  In other words you would do the very same thing again IF you thought you could get away with it.  So should God honour that kind of "repentance" by changing the circumstances or suspending the "judgment" proclaimed? 

The last bit of "wiggle" concerning prophecies could be to say that the difficulty arises from ignorance of the prophetic genre, and the literary licence that prophets could use.  One of which is hyperbole, or simply the use of idiom.  The hearers would understand it within context. The end import of the message is the same.  ie. "The judgement or destruction is not something you want to face if you can avoid it."  And "The purpose of this prophecy is not to decree certain destruction but to point you to the 'way of escape' and the offer of "Mercy and Grace". Otherwise, what was the role of the prophet?  He or she were not "fortune tellers" reading tea leaves or the stars to say this is what is fated for you, but rather the servant of the Lord, declaring the mind and the heart of the Lord to his people so that they might be in right relationship with him.   

"For ever" or "forever" does not have to mean eternity.  As far as you would be concerned, "forever" would mean "within your lifetime", or even "within your generation".

IF you were to "pledge your love" or even friendship to someone "forever" , for how long would you have to show undying loyalty  or interst in that person in order for you not to be a liar? 
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 07:02:11 »

By the way; You are not taking advantage of the many "windows" I open on FB for your participation.  Some of my entries and the comments that follow are so "dull" without your input.
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
steka
Earth goddess
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 1447


Earth goddess


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 10:02:46 »

Your other 'wiggle room' verses explain why God may not accept someone's seemingly sincere repentance, but they do not explain why God would spare Tyre. There is no record of which I am aware which shows that Tyre showed any sorrow, be it godly or worldly. So how can God justify sparing the remorseless city of Tyre, and yet not sparing remorseful (but only in the worldly sense) sinners such as Saul? This lack of records concerning Tyre's repentance also begs the question as to how Ezekiel's warning could be construed as having been heeded by Tyre. And, in the absence of Tyre heeding Ezekiel's warning, why did God allow Nebuchadnezzar's seige to fail?

As to 'forever' - you say that Ezekiel was merely using hyperbole. And yet Isaiah said '70 years'. If Isaiah managed to convey his warning perfectly well without having to resort to the use of hyperbole, what made Ezekiel feel the need to employ its use? This cannot be put down to the prophets' different styles, because Ezekiel also managed to convey his warning to Egypt by prophecying their destruction for 40 years - not the hyperbolic 'forever'. And this was yet another failed prophecy of Ezekiel's. When did the Egyptians ever repent of their sins?

And I do not quite see how the remorse shown by the people of Judah and Jerusalem was 'worldly'. Their sins seemed to mostly be various forms of idolatry. If God had not declared idolatry to be a sin, why should anyone need to feel guilty for indulging in it? It is, after all, a victimless crime. The only way in which idolatry could be considered to be immoral would be in the sense that animals sacrificed to nonexistent gods could have been put to better use - but that also goes for the many sacrifices demanded by Yahweh. So, until God says "I don't want you doing that," what reason would one have to refrain from idolatry? And upon learning of Yahweh's displeasure, the people of Judah and Jerusalem repented. What reason for remorse could they have had other than "God doesn't like us doing this, and he may curse us if we continue?"

OK, I'll have a look over at Facebook. Any specific topics you're thinking of?
Logged
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 17:03:55 »

Per Facebook.  No, just look under my name and scroll through various entries and see where you would like to troll, or jump in.  Some of my best stuff is when I jump in on someone else and throw them a curve.  But you should check out on a regular basis and stir things up as opportunity arises. 

I really haven't spent a lot of time in the ancient past, (Tyre, or Egypt etc.) Don't know of the top of my head what repenting they did or didn't do.  Because of current reading I am aware that Egypt DID provide "refuge" quarters for Joseph, Mary and Jesus when they fled from Herod. 

Ezekiel's writings do come under a slightly differenct classification than "Isaiah" as a prophet.  His writings are also "apocalyptic" similar to Daniel, and Revelation.  There may be some explanation in that.  And of course there is the "symbolic" use in both OT narrative and apocalyptic that COULD have 40 years referring to a "generation" (rounded off) rather than literal 40x360 +-.  And I am not saying any of that is an explanation.  I just haven't "studied" Ezekiel too much, and I am sure you don't want me to go to a "proof text" commentary for an explanation.


Idolatry: see next entry
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
Matt
National Treasure
*****

Karma: 9
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2207


View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 17:29:08 »

Quote
And I do not quite see how the remorse shown by the people of Judah and Jerusalem was 'worldly'. Their sins seemed to mostly be various forms of idolatry. If God had not declared idolatry to be a sin, why should anyone need to feel guilty for indulging in it? It is, after all, a victimless crime.

Idolatry is NOT a victimless crime.  In the context that the Jewish people, have given lip service to God being their theocrat, then by definition and declared "citizenship" as it were, then when they practice idolatry they are practicing a form of "treason". They are being a "fifth column".  When God gave the command that HIS PEOPLE were to have no other gods before him, because he was a "jealous God", it was NOT for his sake or that he was somehow "insecure".  He was jealous for his "bride" in the same way a husband would NOT want his wife to be taken in by a smooth talking swindler, who would put her in slavery or bondage with the promise of riches and an "easy" life.  It is his love for his "chosen" that he declared that they should have "no other gods" because the victim is themselves.  The "gods" do not exist.  There are no other gods, and so it is not "false gods" but "false prophets" that God is protecting his people from with the prohibition.  Thus when he can call them back from idolatry  he is more lenient that total destruction, because his purpose in the discipline is to "win them back", to a relationship/fellowship, rathere than cut them off. The reason you suggest IS the reason to repent.  It is as if you came to understand not only what caused your parent displeasure but also WHY, and what wisdom the parent had in wanting you to refrain, because they saw it would lead to your suffering.  The "curse" of idolatry was in fact the "suffering" and bondage.
Of interest, the word used in the OT for "familiar spirit" has a base meaning of "bottle talker" or babbler, or ventriloquist.  Doesn't that suggest something of the "trickery" that is involved with "false gods", "false prophets" and "idolatry"?
Logged

Why is there something instead of nothing?
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.9 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.764 seconds with 29 queries.